micromanagement

TAUniverse (http://www.tauniverse.com/forum/index.php)

Posted by Masonary on 12-06-2001 10:12 AM:
micromanagement
We all know that to get the best out of an attack, it is best to micro manage
for the duration of it, so that you can respond to whatever an opponant does to
counter the attack.
However, for obvious reasons, this isnt always possible.
So, my question. Early on, say you are going in for a reasonably early flash
rush, say at the point where you have 4 cons and maybe 6 flashes
Now, in an ideal world, all your cons have long build orders, your commander is
up to somthing and you have all the time in the world to micro the attack.
However this prob isnt the case.
Is it better to completely micro the attack, to ensure that you get the best
possible results from it, whilst maybe leaving a con idle and losing a little
build time, or should you spend more time microing the cons, and try to make
sure you do the best damage possible with half of your attention focused on the
attack.
Where do you draw the line. Ideally you are good enough that you can still work
things to a maximum effect, but assume for this post that to do one is slightly
detrimental to the other
I hope that makes sense. If not ask and I will attempt to clarify what i mean

When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things
I Destroy, Therefor I Am [tag]


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things
which is worse, confusion or apathy? who knows, who cares

Posted by LordBeek on 12-06-2001 10:47 AM:

Well for an early Flash attack you wouldnt have 4 cons, more likely to have 1 or
2.
Say you have two:
You would want to queue up the cons to build mexxes. As you attack spread your
forces so that they will appear from multiple angles. This prevents the comm
from taking them all out in one go. As they approach id make sure my cons had a
decent queue of patches to build on, and check my factory has a build queue, and
my commander is either guarding it, or making an Energy facility or two, to
augment the Metal patches.
These checks should be times so you can carry out the raid efficiently. Your
full concetration should be on the raid then, maximising the damage, attempting
to stuff plants, destroying mexxes, or taking out rogue con units, that are
vunerable.
Once the attack is over, your con units will either stll be busy or just
finished. Plus you should have some new units to play with from your lab.
Of course the hard part is conducting effective raids whilst defending against
your opponents Flashes…
In this case, you really have to concentrate on your own base.
Overall i would rather cause more damage than messing about with the con units
to much. Its important to cripple your opponent as much as possible, otherwise
you will waste an awful lot of metal in ure Flashes.

Proud Member of the TEA clan.
Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive but what they
conceal is vital
[This message has been edited by LordBeek (edited December 06, 2001).]


im good
15 min bt

Posted by Screamer on 12-07-2001 09:50 AM:

One thing I try to do (but too often fail to) is to give raiders waypoints
towards the opponent, then check my production as they’re cruising over.
Theoretically, you can micro your Const while the raiders are travelling, then
switch over to the raiders as they’re zeroing in. Unless you catch your opponent
totally pants down, most raids don’t last a long time, so bridging that gap with
a medium sized Const queue shouldn’t be too hard - and if you do catch him
unprepared, a little idling on your side probably won’t make any difference.

The taste of truth is bitter. | You can lead an idiot to
knowledge, but you cannot make him think.


The beauty of the world has two edges, one of laughter, one of anguish, cutting
the heart asunder.
Virginia Woolf

Posted by freak11 on 12-09-2001 12:35 PM:

A related question I’ve had is about using the ctrl group numbers/letters. What
is common practice with most players? I use a number for metal makers, but I
don’t think I use them very well with combat units/factories. Any pointers?

Posted by tau’ri01 on 12-09-2001 01:00 PM:

The numbers system is very good, as it enables you to quickly select a huge army
to attack or defend with. for instance, if youve just sent all you army on a
raid/execution, and suddenly find a load of jammed enemy units on your base, it
is very handy to be able to ctrl1 or whatever and send a group of samsons back
to deal with it, and it even better to use for berthas… if a peeper finds
something, and you need it destroyed quick, it may be difficult to locate your
berthas on the minimap… unless they are marked


Its something unpredictable, but in the end is right…


Its something unpredictable, but in the end is right…

Posted by Director on 12-10-2001 12:20 AM:

With flash attacks, I would normally go in with 10-15, and try to flank with 6-8
from two positions. This takes a lot of managing so you need vehicles in a long
build order, making sure they are moving somewhere useful. If you think your con
may run out of orders, make the last one a guard order on a factory. With your
attacking flashes, hit factories, mex, then solars/wind, then go for the enemy
units, trying to avoid the commander if he has enough energy to D-gun.

Posted by JoesGeo on 12-10-2001 02:46 AM:

Yes with control groups put long range weapons on them. you can kill a commander
with a nuke and a hawk hit first.
Micromanaging your stuff when sending massive groups of sammies against missile
towers is kinda pointless cuz they dont miss ya know. Against like flashes or
rockos tho go ahead and mauever them. microing against mt’s just dribe right tru
them.


quote:

Originally posted by Warchicken
I believe there is an evil spirit living in my computer, trying to drive me
mad.

Yes, I have that problem too. That spirit is referred to as Windows.

Posted by Masonary on 12-10-2001 11:28 AM:

Cheers to all, especially screamer. That is what I was thinking, is that little
bit of idleness worth having for max effect of a raid.

And I like the idea of guarding a plant as the last order for a unit. Never
though of that, although I often give a con a move order to a specific place
that I know, and to which all cons go when they finish building.

Numbering units. As has been said, LRPC,s for ease of firing at targets that
have been seen, or maybe if attacking with three groups from different
directions simultaneously, for ease of coordinating an attack


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

I Destroy, Therefor I Am [tag]


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

which is worse, confusion or apathy? who knows, who cares

Posted by Bohri Likpo on 12-10-2001 09:50 PM:

Now, the latest beta of the demo recorder has the hot key of Control-B that will
select all Idle con units…therefore lessening the need of ending with a guard
command.


I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say
it.–Voltaire

GMTA


I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say
it.–Voltaire

GMTA

Posted by Masonary on 12-11-2001 07:52 AM:

Fair enough, but at the stage of the game we are talking about, you really
should know exactly where and what your cons are doing.
the issue is even if you know it is idle, is it worth leaving idle for a few
secs, whilst you micro the attack for the best effect, or should you leave the
attack to attend to the con, and by giving the guard order at the end of a build
command queue, you ensure that your cons are always doing somthing, so the issue
of leaving the attack is taken away.

In the late game, I completely agree, the ctrl b is usefull, and I really ought
to use it, but I had bad experiences of cancelling all my biuld commands a
couple of times and that has cost me games, so i try not to use it. That was
with the old version, where it selected every con


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

I Destroy, Therefor I Am [tag]

[This message has been edited by masonary (edited December 11, 2001).]


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

which is worse, confusion or apathy? who knows, who cares

Posted by Screamer on 12-11-2001 01:40 PM:

With the idle Const finder in TA Demo it doesn’t select anything - you can
safely use it to track your const without fear of screwing up everything.


The taste of truth is bitter. | You can lead an idiot to
knowledge, but you cannot make him think.


The beauty of the world has two edges, one of laughter, one of anguish, cutting
the heart asunder.
Virginia Woolf

Posted by DOGGY on 12-22-2001 07:57 PM:

ever tried to use the radarmap? worx perfect sometimes… just micro your
cons/comm and distract your opponent. it will help u to keep track of ur flashes
,too. Of course this isnt that effective, but its a good compromise between
building up and rushing hard.

Posted by Perfect_Dark_96 on 12-23-2001 08:21 AM:

When building the Flashes you simply give your const a long list of things to
build

Com builds 3 mex 3 sols
Com builds vehical
Vehical builds 6 flash
Com builds kbot
kbot buid const kbot (at this time 3 flash done)
kbot gets orders. All flashes done
Com guards kbot
kbot builds
flash attacks.
Flahs dies
Kbot done building defenses

And then so on. While the flashes are being made you give the orders to the
const. flashes are done and the const is buiding. you attack with
micromanagement and base is on auto


TADesigners
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Posted by Masonary on 01-14-2002 03:51 AM:

How on earth can you go for the second lab that early without a stall. And what
happense if you get attacked, and your build order is buggered up. In the
perfect world, you can plan your build like that and get it perfect, fair
enough, but if an attack comes in and kills the con, good bye order. Your metal
production doesnt increase at the expected rate, and so you stall. So, do ya
keep on with the micro of the attack, or do ya come back to ya base, and sort
things out.
Is it worth the stall, in order to get the best out of the attack. And dont
build the second lab that early, put the resources into units, they are more
effective in the early game


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

I Destroy, Therefor I Am [tag]


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

which is worse, confusion or apathy? who knows, who cares

Posted by Screamer on 01-14-2002 05:43 AM:

I agree wth masonary, too long a build order is not a good idea. Yes, you save
time compared to setting it up 5 orders at a time and the Const is idle less,
but if you lose the Const or have to change your plans then all that preliminary
time investment goes out the window.

Medium queues are best - maybe 5 to 7 orders. You can usually give those the
easiest too, for longer queues you often have to scroll and search around.


The taste of truth is bitter. | You can lead an idiot to
knowledge, but you cannot make him think.


The beauty of the world has two edges, one of laughter, one of anguish, cutting
the heart asunder.
Virginia Woolf

Posted by JoesGeo on 01-23-2002 12:06 AM:

About those con units I dont think the length build order matters all that much.

But as for microing units it depends on what they can shoot. Like micro them to
kill a commander. Or other things that shoot back as well.


quote:

Originally posted by Warchicken
I believe there is an evil spirit living in my computer, trying to drive me
mad.

Yes, I have that problem too. That spirit is referred to as Windows.

Posted by DOGGY on 01-23-2002 10:24 AM:

discussing micromangement: an oxymoron , sigh, being good in discussions about
soccer and actually being a good players are 2 pairs of different socks (just a
german expression, i hope u get it ) Talking about it doesnt make u better, u
gotta train

Posted by Screamer on 01-23-2002 10:55 AM:

Undoubtedly - but talking about it may get you ideas about things that work for
others and which you may want to try. Of course, after the discussion, you have
to actually try them.


The taste of truth is bitter. | You can lead an idiot to
knowledge, but you cannot make him think.


The beauty of the world has two edges, one of laughter, one of anguish, cutting
the heart asunder.
Virginia Woolf

Posted by littleloser on 01-23-2002 02:22 PM:

What’d be painstaking but pretty nice is if someone took the time to find out
exactly how many hawk shots it takes to kill a certain unit so when you’re
paused in mid-play you can select certain numbers of hawks.


i’m littleloser when will i win the jackpot?


Touch me and die.
(Of course, that’s physically impossible on the internet…)

Posted by JoesGeo on 01-23-2002 03:49 PM:

Well you can do that on your own with the HPI viewer. But if i see something
valuable I will shoot it.


quote:

Originally posted by Warchicken
I believe there is an evil spirit living in my computer, trying to drive me
mad.

Yes, I have that problem too. That spirit is referred to as Windows.

Posted by tau’ri01 on 01-23-2002 06:29 PM:

Not neccessarily… this may be straying from the topic, but if you know you
dont have the fire power to kill the commander, and your microing the attack,
why bother to take shots at himat all?
Shoot at things you can destroy, not things that you can damage and will get
repaired anyway.


Its something unpredictable, but in the end is right…


Its something unpredictable, but in the end is right…

Posted by JoesGeo on 01-24-2002 02:35 PM:

Good point tau’ri. See you could shoot at commie and sed bombers after him. Or
you could shoot to kill the units saving commie. of you could kill the
infrastructure to save your base from the enemy army he is building.
All are valid choices.


quote:

Originally posted by Warchicken
I believe there is an evil spirit living in my computer, trying to drive me
mad.

Yes, I have that problem too. That spirit is referred to as Windows.

Posted by DOGGY on 01-25-2002 01:16 PM:

repairing? who the flour repairs stuff?

Posted by LordBeek on 01-26-2002 06:39 AM:

I like to repair my Big Berthas and Guardians you know.


Proud Member of the TEA clan.

Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive but what they
conceal is vital


im good
15 min bt

Posted by Screamer on 01-26-2002 04:13 PM:

And I repair my Commander.


The taste of truth is bitter. | You can lead an idiot to
knowledge, but you cannot make him think.


The beauty of the world has two edges, one of laughter, one of anguish, cutting
the heart asunder.
Virginia Woolf

Posted by Masonary on 01-27-2002 11:18 PM:

dont forget fleets of vamps or hawks.
If you have the time to do it, repair it all. Cheaper than building afresh


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

which is worse, confusion or apathy? who knows, who cares


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

which is worse, confusion or apathy? who knows, who cares

Posted by Xavier on 02-09-2002 01:32 AM:

i think umm in the 1st say 10 mins of a game… if u make a con veh u really
really don’t want it to be idle. even if its just moving to where u want it to
be. one trick that u can use early on is assign hotkeys to ur units as they come
out of ur lab… i.e. if u make flash, con, flash, con…
the flashes will be numbered 1 and 3 and the cons 2 and 4 - then u do everything
at once by simply selecting the group and hitting ‘t’ to go to the unit. for ex.
u send the 1st flash to somewhere near ur enemies base, then shortly after that
a con veh is produced as u are guarding ur lab with ur comm… so u start to
queue it maybe on only 2 or 3 things. then u can go to the flash and give it a
few more waypoints etc and flick quickly back to the con to give it further
orders. also on the comment about idealy u want all ur cons to have long build
orders… well i disagree slightly in that if a con is queued to a lot of things
it is going to be quite a while in game time b4 it gets to the last things, and
who knows what u will need ur cons to be doing by then. of course if ur talking
about a con making just mex and radars then sure, queue it to build on the whole
map if u can. things like missile towers tho its probably better to queue them
where u need them as u need them - otherwise ur base will become a pretty
arrangement of useless units. (which cost u resources and time to build)

i think the ideal is to be able to continuously move around the map giving units
and cons orders as they require them. (up to the point where ur brain starts to
fry trying to keep up with everything anyway)

Posted by Screamer on 02-09-2002 12:49 PM:

Yeah, as I said, medium queues are probably best - in the ballpark of 5 to 7, of
course it depends on what you’re building, fewer orders for things that take a
long time to build and more if they build quickly. Learning to handle many
things at once is absolutely vital on large games - like, on PD or something.


The taste of truth is bitter. | You can lead an idiot to
knowledge, but you cannot make him think.


The beauty of the world has two edges, one of laughter, one of anguish, cutting
the heart asunder.
Virginia Woolf

Posted by Masonary on 02-09-2002 07:32 PM:

Have to agree with screamer. Knowing what is going on and handling many things
at once is vital.
I have thought for a long time that, past a certain point in terms of ability
and tactics, it is the ability of the individuals to multi task that determines
who will win in a lot of situations. obviosly it is not solely down to this, but
it plays a large part


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

which is worse, confusion or apathy? who knows, who cares


When the Blind Leadeth the blind
They Bumpeth into things

which is worse, confusion or apathy? who knows, who cares

Posted by Annihilater2k1 on 02-09-2002 08:01 PM:

On large maps it is easier to micro-manage and con line-up together, just slow
the game down and send your Flashes(via waypoints if you wish) to the enemy base
and whilst they are en route you could cue 1-2 cons with seven-twelve commands
and then still get back with your flashes to micro the raid. Also later on in
the game hows about setting a building rally point in the middle of defences or
base if you are WAY ahead in the resource expansion race.


The weak have one weapon, the over-confidence of those who think they are
strong.

Posted by Pic on 02-10-2002 12:33 AM:

yah well, that sucks… you should give way more than 7… give like 50 hella
fast… 10 seconds… max… take speed b4 the game and fry your comp with your
brain… microing is mega important… i wont lose a single game as long as
someone else uses ctrl w with land units 1 single time i assure you that … ciao
, and ctrl 1 and ctrl 2 and alt 1 and alt 2 is much better , you can que with
cons 5x as fast by using nubmers for screen build menus…

CIAO!!!come ask me some flour or else ill stop awnsering :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


[The]-[Pic]┊?


[The]-[Pic]┊?

Posted by Screamer on 02-10-2002 06:19 PM:

Well if you use +switchalt you can still flip
through the buildmenu pages with Alt-1, Alt-2 etc. Have to agree though, using
the keyboard to page through buildmenus is much faster than clicking the arrows.


The taste of truth is bitter. | You can lead an idiot to
knowledge, but you cannot make him think.


The beauty of the world has two edges, one of laughter, one of anguish, cutting
the heart asunder.
Virginia Woolf

Posted by Xavier on 02-11-2002 01:53 AM:

yah screamer cept - what is more important, queuing cons or selecting ur attack
groups faster?
for me its the queueing cons that is 100x more important.

Posted by Screamer on 02-11-2002 02:11 AM:

You do have a point there I must say. (Make no mistake though, even with
switchalt the keyboard still 20x faster than the mouse.) Heh, I originally used
switchalt because I was used to C&C but never thought about it again since,
maybe I should have as I learned more about the game.


The taste of truth is bitter. | You can lead an idiot to
knowledge, but you cannot make him think.


The beauty of the world has two edges, one of laughter, one of anguish, cutting
the heart asunder.
Virginia Woolf

Posted by aNTiSHaTTer on 02-21-2002 02:11 PM:

cons are the bad boys of TA send 300 air cons and 100 adv cons to relcaim a
krogie see what happens


SHaTTer was HeRe


SHaTTer was HeRe

Posted by Annihilater2k1 on 02-21-2002 02:37 PM:

Who would let there opp build a kroggie anyways?


The weak have one weapon, the over-confidence of those who think they are
strong.


The weak have one weapon, the over-confidence of those who think they are
strong.

Posted by Xavier on 02-21-2002 02:52 PM:

to go back to the original question for a minute…

to me the bottom line is that the more things u can micro at once the better
player u are.

(at once meaning moving round between things and always going to something b4 it
needs more micro)

i mean if ur brain is so good that u can never use shift and only queue one
thing at once yet always have cons building and units doing what they should be
then u will probably never be beaten. that’s a bit unrealistic i know, but u get
my drift? and if u can queue really really fast then it follows that u will have
more time to micro ur units when u need to. consider the example where u have 5
battles going on at different places at the same time. if one player spends all
his time microing one of those battles while the other just does a little micro
on each, then the 1st guy will most likely win the one battle he is
concentrating on yet lose the other 4. i know i’d rather be the guy who won 4
outa 5 battles

p.s. i wish i had a good comp and mouse so i could take my own advice

Posted by aNTiSHaTTer on 02-21-2002 03:35 PM:

I think that sending units to their deaths scares your enemy


SHaTTer was HeRe

Posted by A_Novice_ToS on 02-21-2002 05:59 PM:

I think building 50billion cheap units then continually typing .units is a
really good way to scare your enemy

Posted by Annihilater2k1 on 02-22-2002 02:55 PM:

Seriously, play the AI and try and kill them in inder 5 mins on each difficulty
setting then download BANZAI from MADTA and do the same then download each AI
boost (above 9), MADTA again and then try it online and then see how your
sub-concious knows what to do and whatch yourself speed the way to victory.

I am only on AI boost 11 or 12 i think, have to check.


The weak have one weapon, the over-confidence of those who think they are
strong.

Posted by Xavier on 02-22-2002 03:03 PM:

seriously, don’t try to learn multiplayer ta skills by playing ai’s

Posted by Annihilater2k1 on 02-22-2002 07:03 PM:

It takes time but it does actually get you off to a good start afetr a while.


The weak have one weapon, the over-confidence of those who think they are
strong.


The weak have one weapon, the over-confidence of those who think they are
strong.

Posted by Xavier on 02-22-2002 08:21 PM:

imo playing the ai develops more bad habits than it improves yer good habits.
but i guess as long as u play other ppl enuff it can help yer clicking skills or
something.

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