TAUniverse - Which Cavedog maps are rubbish to play games on

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TAUniverse (http://www.tauniverse.com/forum/index.php)

Posted by PeterC on 09-20-2001 12:10 PM:
Which Cavedog maps are rubbish to play games on?
There are plenty that never get played, but I wonder which are the worst. I’d
say Ror Shock is awful because of the distances involved and the massive metal.
Same with Seven Islands. Crater Isles is the com rusher’s paradise (as are most
small land maps, but at least you can count on a good player being sensible and
not standing their com in front of a Guardian on Red Planet - on this, you are
mad not to move to the north-east isle). Lava Mania is silly, and the Com won’t
kill Jeffies there. Full Moon is awfully unbalanced. What other maps suck?
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Posted by LordBeek on 09-20-2001 02:11 PM:

I dont feel that Full Moon is unbalanced, care to explain why?
To me, the worst maps are Lava Mania, for obviously being unbalanced, Core Prime
Industrial, and Yerrot Mountains.

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-20-2001 02:21 PM:

I’m happy to believe that Full Moon is unbalanced. I always seem to lose there
so I have to justify it somehow
I think the metal maps are the worst offenders. Core Prime Industrial Area has
high walls- ruling out land attack. Metal Isles has high walls and unclimable
shores in most places- ruling out amphibious and sea attack. Over Crude water
has such narrow bridges it, yes you guessed it, rules out land attacks. For me,
theres nothing more boring than an air battle on a metal map.
Its not as if its difficult to make a metal map- Metal Heck plays fine and has a
perfectly simple design.

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Posted by OneLoneWolf on 09-20-2001 02:23 PM:

The most unplayable maps are Lava Alley for it’s total lack of pathfinding and
Icy bergs for those stupid ice bombs.

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-20-2001 02:27 PM:

Crater Islands is tolerably balanced. Most of the metal is at sea so if you can
control the underwater patches your at a distinct advantage.

I like lava mania . Its just a tad too small but fine if you know who your
playing well enough that he won’t comm bomb you.

You could say Lakeshore is unbalanced- the bottom player gets very few metal
patches while the other guy gets tons.

Why does nobody ever play those two crystal maps. One plays much like Gods of
War or a Hundred Isles. Its a very fun, if a very long game.

The others called Crystal Island I think. Theres a metal filled isle in middle
of map and land map all around. thats quite fun if I remember correctly.

[edit] Crystal Isles and Crystal Treasure Island [/edit]

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-20-2001 02:31 PM:

Is’nt it called Rock Alley? Ya- that maps looks good but plays badly.

Those ice showers are a REAL pain. Their not very fair . One player gets a
consistant hammering throughout the game while the other player gets clear
sky’s.

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Posted by LordBeek on 09-20-2001 02:32 PM:

Crystal Treasure Island i think you mean.

Yeah i play that a lot, but its not my best map.

I agree with Lake Shore, but i still think, even while its unbalanced, its a
great map. These ideas really call for someone to make a small, mod to rebalance
the TA maps.

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[This message has been edited by LordBeek (edited September 20, 2001).]

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Posted by PeterC on 09-20-2001 02:38 PM:

Beek, how many times have you played Yerrot Mountains online? I just played it
with Sid and it was VERY good. There aren’t all that many metal spots, and each
one gives around +0.8

It is realy a test of expansion and ground coverage skills and it works really
well.

As for Full Moon, look at this minimap image. The yellow dots are metal spots on
the map. Now tell me which side you’d like to start on.

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Posted by OneLoneWolf on 09-20-2001 02:39 PM:

No it’s Lava Alley, Rock Alley is a very playable and fun map.

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-20-2001 02:56 PM:

A few maps I think are fine but are never played are: Etorrep Glacier, Flooded
Glaciers, Higher Ground,Checker ponds, the Bayou and Lushaven.

Is Anteer Straight any good?

Then there are loads which are ok in Skirmish but too big for multiplayer- Slate
Gordon, Sector 410b, Pillopeans and East Indeez .

Other problems I found was Town and Country’s urban vs green play balance just
does’nt work and Surface Meltdowns start positions are horrible with some
players starting the the middle of the map while other people get secure
corners.

Sorry lord Beek- there is a map called Lava Alley and it is truly horrible. the
fact you need to build an airplant, to build a transport, to get your commander
off the starting hill is a joke .

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-20-2001 03:02 PM:

Peter the problem with Yerrot is its slightly too big for most people and it
lags horribly. As does Slated fate and Polar Range in my multiplayer experience.

LOL at the Full Moon pic. Cool PeterC.
That’ll tell me exactly what to do from now on on that map. Expand forward and
south(Provided I’m on the good side of course) .

Could you do one of those images on LakeShore to illustrate similar problems.

Damn! I have to do that with all of TA’s maps- especially small ones. It could
make a world of difference to my skills on Red Planet and similar maps.

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Posted by LordBeek on 09-20-2001 03:17 PM:

Sorry lord Beek- there is a map called Lava Alley and it is truly horrible. the fact you need to build an airplant, to build a transport, to get your commander off the starting hill is a joke

I never mentioned that o_O

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-20-2001 03:24 PM:

Dreadfully sorry. 'Twas One Lone Wolf

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Posted by PeterC on 09-20-2001 04:00 PM:

Molloy, you need to download TA Profiler to make these minimap images. Go to the
utilities section at Visual TA to get it. It is a great tool - all credit to
BTU_Dark_Rain for making it.

Lake Shore:

It seems you are right about the imbalances there too. BTW, the red spots are
rocks or other reclaimable features. The brighter red it is, the more valuable.
The brighter yellow a metal spot, the more it generates.

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[This message has been edited by PeterC (edited September 20, 2001).]

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Posted by OneLoneWolf on 09-20-2001 05:19 PM:

Hmmmm - BM, I’m the one who said it was Lava Alley, you’re the one who thought I
meant to say Rock Alley.

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Posted by THE_DuDe on 09-20-2001 05:26 PM:

Pincusion. Just look at the damn thing! LOOK AT IT!

Why can’t the Arm and Core be nice?

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virginity and have all of mah bebe’s or something close to it!

My heart goes out to Haker.

Posted by tcomm on 09-20-2001 05:35 PM:

Some maps you have to play a lot to really notice how unbalanced they are. One
map like this if CLUSTER FREAK. Don’t even get me started on CF (Well, I will
anyway). I have had countless arguments about this on IRC and GBL…if you take
your comm to the middle you win. Period. And none of this blah-blah the sides
are better cause of the geos. BS. I used to like that map and played it a lot,
until this one night when I played 2 Gnugs there. The first game was against
125. I had control of 4 out of 5 islands with ground to air missle units and
several FFs patrolling. He gets his comm to mid going right where I had no AA.
then D-guns everything. This of course allowed him to win easy when I should
have. It pisses me off to no end. The second was against 315 and again I had an
awesome start again but the “no rules” killed me just like it did the last time.
This is why I now despise CF and will never play it again.

BTW, other bad maps are Crater Isles (sorry Denim Ashap Plateau (it may be
balanced but I hate it), & Two Continents.

And whoever said Crystal Treasure Island sucks, you are wrong…It is a great
map.

[This message has been edited by tcomm (edited September 20, 2001).]

Posted by tcomm on 09-20-2001 05:37 PM:

Pincushion 0//nZ j00. Seriously there is nothing wrong with it and I enjoy
playing it.

Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-20-2001 05:57 PM:

Nobody said Crystal treasure Island sucks.

I’ve always hated Cluster Freak also . Straigt air battles are dull. Oweeeeee’s
not bad though. Biggie Biggs is the best Air Map by far. Berthas can’t reach
much of the map and its quite enjoyable to island hop with no huge land area
thats too powerful.

Ashap Plateau is very fun in a 2vs2. Trying to gain control of the low land is
good fun. The main annoyance is the land is all bumpy and you have to keep
clicking everywhere to find a spot for your solars.

Dark_Rain is in BTU now? Awwww. I always saw him as a freelance. Hes much too
humble to be in BTU too .

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-20-2001 06:05 PM:

You should do a newstip of that TA Profiler Peter. Its a pretty useful proggie
to check your map balance

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Posted by LordBeek on 09-20-2001 06:40 PM:

It never works for me. Will only show GD2.

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Posted by PeterC on 09-20-2001 07:13 PM:

I did exactly that, Molloy. Sid did an earlier newstip too. If you read our
front page more often you’d know about this.

Cluster Freak is a 2v2 map. 1v1s work okay there but only in the same lame way
as they do on LHG. I wouldn’t say it is unbalanced 1v1 in the sense that any
particular player gets it better than another. But it is just too much about
luck for my liking. Essentially as soon as you land a con vehicle on an island,
you’ll probably own it for all the game. That is too random for serious skill to
come through. Grabbing the centre is a sad feature of all small maps. CF is one
of the few where it makes some sense, because at least you can’t do it by
standing your com in front of a Guardian.

Sherwood, Dark Side and Red Planet are another couple of small maps that are
playable, as long as one player is sensible. If he isn’t and guards out MTs and
Guardians in the centre with his Commander, both coms die and the idiot doesn’t
win - I make sure of it.

Ashap Plateau is certainly crap 1v1 and too small for 2v2.

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Posted by Energy Breaker on 09-21-2001 12:55 AM:

My prob is similar to LordBeek’s. Cept when I run the prog, it only shows a list
of the SP missions from TA, CC, BT and only a handful of the addon maps in the
dir. O_o

How do ya get it to display a list of the MP maps?

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Posted by Pic on 09-21-2001 04:05 AM:

For starters i dont see how fm is unbalanced… left has metals near him right
has lotsa rocks… you just have to realize what to do with each.

second of all if you really do understand what you are doing on each map most
maps are not unfair… and saying a map is bad because com cant kill jeffies is
silly cause… sams and defeders are supose to not coms… crater isles is not
unfair but if you dont like it

CPIA core prime industrial area… is a great map. you do need land cause you are
not gonna wanna cramp inside the walls that would be dumb… anwyays… yah…

lava alley sucks LOL thats the only map that i think sucks ROFLMAO

crater isles is not controlled by sea for… land can have defedners with dt
making ships do nothing… i mean the paths are so narrow it wont matter ya
know?..

perhaps lakeshore is unbalanced… but thats good gives some people challenges…
and makes people think harder

that map rock alley… whys it play bad? plz?

i beleive yerrot mountains to be the best map that is a cavedog map… it gives
you chances to have to use your micro skills at the highest levels… you must
defend ALOT of stuff and also attack alota places… its what i think is a test
of RTS games… if there was a lake in it with metal the size of comet that would
be cool too but its still great… its har dto have radar for the whole map…
soo people can hide and make come backs its not… i see you you die i win

full moon
there are many more rocks to be gotten on the right side its very fair… both
players shouldnt have to do the same exact thing to win

true true town and country sucks… but you can always move to the wreks

you dont have to make an air plant on lavva alley you can walk down man… sigh…

pincussions… thats a great map have to do alot sigh…

the middle on cluster freak does not gauruntee you a win… the outer edges are
hard to save coms on but… there is nearly as much metal ont he outside as the
middle alone… then with the geos… and the fact you can majorly multi bomb in
the middle compared to the outside also lets the advantage of the middle fade…
the fact that if you steal thier isle means you got metal and air and theydont…
you just gotta know what to do sorry

also landing a con is in no way assuring you anything on any isle i wish it was
that way then id just land cons and not build lol.also you can win tthe middle
if there is an acutal fight there… standing infroint of a gaurdian ya know ya
know? ya youknow…

darkside is ok you said? ashaps is 2x darkside and not ok for 2vs2? bleh.

anyways on dem small maps… just killis cons and metal. and he cant gaurd out
crap

sorry if you dont understand my rambling and sorry if i was mean or osmething

[The]-[Pic]┊?

[The]-[Pic]┊?

Posted by Switeck on 09-21-2001 05:57 AM:

Polar Range comes to mind on the unfairness meter because the hailstorms are
downright deadly.

Great Divide seems at least a bit unfair because the top left has a geo vent.
Also the hills on that map are much closer to the bottom than top.

Sail Away is a fun map, but in 2 vs 2 with top versis bottom the top players
have the advantage of large islands above them to expand to while the bottom
players have to more or less go through the top players to get to large islands
to expand onto.

The Pass sucks because the only way from the left side of the map to the right
can get gummed up by a single corpse. Which makes it an air map by default, but
because of its size offscreen bombing is the norm rather than the exception.

Posted by DS_Natas on 09-21-2001 06:54 AM:

Tcomm u recall the game u played on gbl agaist subzero??? (me) i gave u the
middle island and i still won having the middle doesnt say anything if u dont
know what to do with it!

HAIL DEATHSQUAD!!!

HAIL DEATHSQUAD!!!

5

Posted by PeterC on 09-21-2001 07:17 AM:

Pic, the left side gets rocks on FM too - they are just bigger on the right. But
they hardly compensate for the imbalances in metal spots. Those two big rocks at
the top right are not guaranteed - I have been able to get both from the left
before, but even if you get them, how much can you do with the three Flashes or
two con vehicles it pays for? Very little I would say. From them on left player
gets it better all the way through, having 2/3 more metal spots on his side than
on the right. It is also easier for the left player to seize the metal spots
dead centre.

Yerrot Mountains owns.

Crater Isles is okay 2v2 but it really encourages com stuff, and I believe a
game becomes pretty pointless on a map so small if players are trading islands
and Dgunning each other’s plants. 1v1 is worse still. You are mad not to move to
the North East isle very quickly, and both coms do. Then you get a silly com
fight and the game ends there.

Foxholes is an obvious one, and I think Screamer said he played 20 games there
of which one did not end in mutal destruction. The good thing about that map is
it is easy to agree before the game that neither com can leave his hole to guard
out MTs or Guardians or something. LHG can work in a similar way should you
desire it. Otherwise, it is unplayable. The trouble with maps where there isn’t
a clear start position like that is you can never define exactly where the com
can go, and if you do you make the game stupid, with missle units staying just
out of Dgun range and firing on him or something.

The reason Dark Side works is that if both coms stay virtually exactly where
they started, then it can be a very good game. If some moron moves to the centre
to guard out MTs and a Guardian then obviously the game is indeed useless.

As for Lava Mania, it is the only map I have played where the com literally
cannot kill Jeffies. I played maybe 4 games with Sid there one day, and each
time we’d send a few Jeffies at each other - when we saw one entering the base
we’d click on our com then on the enemy Jeffy and return to raiding. Each time
we’d return 30 seconds later to see that we’d both lost all out winds and mexxes
because the com didn’t move. We both quit in disgust repeatedly and then agreed
to play a decent map after the third or fourth time. LM is the only map I have
ever seen where this happens. An early Samson doesn’t work very well on lava
maps with all the ridges and so on either.

Peter.

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[This message has been edited by PeterC (edited September 21, 2001).]

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-21-2001 08:19 AM:

If your killing jeffies at the start of the game you have to micro manage the
kill regardless of what map your playing on. The jeffy can move faster and could
run rings around your comm if you don’t watch the situation carefully.

How does 3 rocks balance out full moon? I’d prefer 3 metal extractors thank you.

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Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-21-2001 08:20 AM:

Weeee- I’m a Hawk

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Posted by PeterC on 09-21-2001 08:26 AM:

Just how thick are you? It is nothing to do with speed! The com will not shoot
the Jeffy with his laser!

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Posted by SadisticSid on 09-21-2001 10:01 AM:

Grr yes. He just will not fire at the Jeffy automatically, nor will he move to
intercept it! An early Samson leaves you without the metal to do anything else
on that map too, plus it ain’t very effective considering the varying terrain.

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Posted by Pic on 09-21-2001 11:18 AM:

hehe dudes… sigh… SIGH… dont play sa 2vs2 top versus bottom then sheesh
lol…

anyways back to the important arguements … ummmmmm sams kill jeffies at the
start of games… if you cant manage a couple sams and a coulpe jeffies then
sigh… and jsut dgun the stupid jeffie if ya think ya cant dang.!!!.. lol

and FM ROFLMAO… lets do the math ok? and lets be AGRESSIVE about it… unless
you are playing a newbie… whoever is on the right side is gettin those 3 big
rox no doubt man…

1st off. i dont even remember they are jsut big lol… they give alota metal…
lets say… 400? 500 maybe? k? OK? it takes about… 10 seconds 15 maybe? to
suckem up all the way?

ok we got 500=15 seconds

n ya say the other side has 3 more metals? ya say? 1st of all they are not all
2.0 metals

so lets say the 3 metals even though i know they dont… give… 5 metal ok?

thats 55 metal per extracor… which you dont even get metal while yer making em
lets say… hmm and your com dont makem… or you dont guar dplant and other guy
wins anyways…
so it takes hmmm about hmmmmm con uses?to make metal? divided by 55? blehbleh? i
dunno 18 secnds?

hmm k so if ya did it smart ya got the 2.0 1st… which i already got 500 more
metal then ya

55 divided by 2= 27 lets say… + 18 for the con buildin… thats… uhh 35
seconds… so afta 35 seconds you start makeing metal… lets say you got 2 cons
gettin them but ya second con gets to the one later… so you wont make metal
from that one till maybe 15 seconds LATER than the 1st one… so you made 30
metal from da 1st one right? den ya start making metal from the next… and the
next one should be getting down about now… you prolly are still 20 or so metal
short of paying all 3 off. right? so i got

so i got 520 metal… hmm that was a minute ago. when i had the 500… i coulda
done HELUVA flour in a minute man… but for your sake… lessay i didnt make
recourses… oderwise id have way more…

so i made 5 flashes lets say… thats 5 more than you can possible have… a minue
b4 you got 2 of those metals… plz man… just see the multitude if you are to be
agressive? this could go 2 ways…

if ya got them metals with yer com…
you dont have crap with your plant and you lose alla start spot

n if you get the metals with cons… big chance you gonna lose the cons n
metals… anyways and be worse off… if ya think your com can be at both places
he cant… n the fact that i only needed one con to suck my rocks… makes it so
ill have 7 +whatever i wasgonna have anyways… n it leaves ya 2 short and 5
more cause of recourses. not to mention e the metals take 5-700? not sure mate…
anyways… thats 1800 e… and well you prolly cant dgun as well as youd hoped…
unless you got even less flahses … since you got no fast income… “heh”

it makes a big difference no matter what the case is on ANY MAP if ya know what
your advantage is…

anwyays if ya understood my nonsense … cool… if not sigh and if ya did…
explain it…

inshort… rocks give the metal metals cost metal!!!

oh ya…n… sams kill jeffies

[The]-[Pic]┊?

[The]-[Pic]┊?

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Posted by Pic on 09-21-2001 11:19 AM:

dang movem your sam infront of da metal… and der … id rather have a sam and
less metal. then all m y metals dead wouldnt you? sigh

[The]-[Pic]┊?

[The]-[Pic]┊?

Posted by BLITZ_Molloy on 09-21-2001 11:32 AM:

The rocks on FM are’nt worth anywhere near 500 metal. Keeeping a extractor for
10 minutes beats a couple of rocks hands down.

I don’t know why you bother shooting jeffys with laser. I use the d-gun. It has
better range and shooting the jeffy with a laser for the sake of the wreck is
silly too. Jeffy wrecks hold very, very little metal.

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Posted by PeterC on 09-21-2001 12:24 PM:

The Dgun at the start of a claustrophobic map like that tends to take out half
the base - more than any Jeffy. The Samson problem was already explained, Pic.

Peter.

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Posted by Pic on 09-21-2001 05:43 PM:

yah the samson and jeffie problem was disscussed but it was ended at a SAD point
bleh.

yah havin them mexes is good for 10 mins… but thats when people just sit around
doing nothing at all for 10 minutes … good players will take the rocks and usem
not jsut sit around waiting for you to get all your mexes PFFT sigh

[The]-[Pic]┊?

[The]-[Pic]┊?

Posted by Pic on 09-21-2001 05:46 PM:

n sigh learn to dgun … sigh there is 500 metal sigh

[The]-[Pic]┊?

Posted by Genius on 09-21-2001 06:20 PM:

Poor pic, this seems like too much hard work

Posted by OneLoneWolf on 09-22-2001 12:23 AM:

Having been instructed by Pic I can say that he helps more people probably than
any other player, if asked. But it gets tiresome to have to explain every little
detail multiple times in a topic. Read what he has to say then put it in
practice.

OneLoneWolf - Wolf’s Lair

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OneLoneWolf - Wolf’s Lair

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Posted by Twinge on 09-27-2001 09:54 PM:

Simple thought: Symetrical Maps are more fair, but also more boring. Have to
have somewhere in between most of the time, me thinks.

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